APPRAISER:
Here we have this photo of a very young Muhammad Ali, known then as...

GUEST:
Cassius Clay.

APPRAISER:
...Cassius Clay. We have a 1962 fight ticket here, and we have this interesting piece of cloth that's signed to Eleanor from Cassius Clay. So my question to you-- and I believe that you are also in this photo with Mr. Ali-- was this a chance meeting?

GUEST:
I had been invited to go to the fight, and afterwards said, "Let's go out to dinner." And then we were at dinner, and I stole the napkin, people wrote on it... (both laughing)

GUEST:
And then they said, "Let's take a photograph." So we were standing out there, my friend Emily, who's between Cassius and his brother Rudy, and my friend Gail, the one with the big bubble hair on the other side. (chuckles) And when my girlfriend sent me that photograph, I said, "Golly, Emily, that was a long time ago." I said, "Is that Smokey Robinson in there?" (chuckling):

APPRAISER:
That's right, on the left hand side here, yes. (chuckles):

GUEST:
Yeah. And she said, "No, no, those are the busboys that jumped into the picture." (both laughing)

APPRAISER:
So it was one big party.

GUEST:
Yeah, it was.

APPRAISER:
How did you meet him?

GUEST:
I met him because Howard Bingham, a photographer from the local Black newspaper... Mm-hmm. ...was always taking us places. "You want to go see this, want to see that?" And so the-- he, Cassius, and Archie Moore had been boxing, training, at the 6th Street Gym in downtown L.A. So we watched him for a few days, a couple of hours. I was 18, so something didn't hold my attention a long time. (chuckles) And he said, "Do you want to go up to his room and meet him?" "Sure." So we went up to the room. He and Rudy were sharing a room together. And he was the sweetest-- I'm going to say boy, 'cause he was really unsophisticated.

APPRAISER:
What do you remember about this photo when he said he wanted to take it?

GUEST:
Howard was taking pictures all the time.

APPRAISER:
Okay.

GUEST:
Wherever Cassius was...

APPRAISER:
All right.

GUEST:
...Howard was there, and he... At that time, we didn't know he was going to be his lifetime photographer.

APPRAISER:
This was sort of the beginnings of all of that.

GUEST:
Yes, yes.

APPRAISER:
So how did you get him to sign the cl, the napkin? When you're almost famous, you want your autograph everywhere, right? (laughs) (both laughing)

APPRAISER:
That's right.

GUEST:
And Cassius was always telling people who he was, what he'd done, and he was going to be famous. He was going to be number one.

APPRAISER:
On this side, we have the Cassius Clay signature, Billy Stephan.

GUEST:
Yes.

APPRAISER:
And on the other side, there's a long inscription from Cassius Clay's brother...

GUEST:
Yes.

APPRAISER:
...uh, Rudolph. And also there's a signature from heavyweight champion Archie Moore.

GUEST:
Yes.

APPRAISER:
This is a very, I think, overlooked period in his history.

GUEST:
It is.

APPRAISER:
When he was Cassius Clay. From '60 to '64, he had won the gold medal in Rome, and then he started his professional career.

GUEST:
Right.

APPRAISER:
And he was working his way up.

GUEST:
Worked his, yeah, but he knew he was going there.

APPRAISER:
Absolutely. But he was developing his style...

GUEST:
Mm-hmm.

APPRAISER:
...and he was knocking out, consistently, his...

GUEST:
Yes.

APPRAISER:
In fact, he knocked out Alejandro Lavorante.

GUEST:
He did, he did.

APPRAISER:
I, five rounds, I believe.

GUEST:
Yes.

APPRAISER:
And by the time you hit the end of 1963, he was 19-0. And everything changed in 1964.

GUEST:
It did.

APPRAISER:
He, he managed to get a shot at the heavyweight title. He upsets Sonny Liston.

GUEST:
Yes.

APPRAISER:
And then he becomes Muhammad Ali, changes and converts to Islam.

GUEST:
I know, and just, people flipped out. They didn't know what being a Muslim meant. He didn't either, much. But he knew he didn't want to be this colored boy from Kentucky. That was not his story.

APPRAISER:
He had to take on a new persona.

GUEST:
He did.

APPRAISER:
So he went on to transcend sport, between him becoming a conscientious objector in the Vietnam War, subsequently losing his boxing license...

GUEST:
Yes.

APPRAISER:
...from '67 to '70. And then the great comeback, reestablishing himself as heavyweight champion with the trilogy against Joe Frazier, Rumble in the Jungle with George Foreman, and finally, becoming a great humanitarian.

GUEST:
Yes. I think his career was educational for America and the world. But he had such a persona and he never backed down from who he was. And he made people listen. It's a legacy that says you don't have to stay where you started.

APPRAISER:
So when we value autographs, one of the first things we look at is the historical importance. And, of course, this is as good as it gets. But another major factor is rarity. And Muhammad Ali signed as Ali from '64 until his passing in 2016. Ca, his Cassius Clay signatures are predominantly from 1960 to 1964, a much shorter period of time...

GUEST:
Yes. ...much rarer, and therefore, much more valuable.

APPRAISER:
To me, what's very important here is the photo and the ticket, because they support the napkin, it supports the provenance and the story, but they in and of themselves do not have significant value. The value is actually really in the napkin, the signature, and the fact that we can pinpoint exactly when he signed it. Because another big issue in this day, it, fakes and forgeries. (laughing): So, we have no issue here, in regards...

GUEST:
I'm in it.

APPRAISER:
You have perfect provenance. We have you. (laughs) I would put an auction estimate for $3,000 to $5,000.

GUEST:
You know, that's amazing. I never thought of a value. I just wanted people to know that I was there with him. (both laughing) And I'm kind of a devotee. (laughing): I watch you every week on ANTIQUES ROADSHOW, so, thank you.

APPRAISER:
And now you're a part of it.

GUEST:
Yes! (laughs)